John Allen Muhammad is scheduled to be executed tomorrow in Virginia. The U.S. supreme court denied an appeal from Muhammad’s lawyers.
This is a very difficult situation. I feel for the victims and their families but I do not believe that the death penalty is the answer.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states in Part 3 Section 2 Article 5:
Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
I know that many of the victims family members feel justified in this decision – as in an eye for an eye type thing. And I do not want to take any of that hurt away. But what does another death solve?
For those that pray – I ask that you say a prayer for the victims and their families tomorrow. And then I ask you to pray for the soul of John Allen Muhammad.
Here is the list of victims:
James Martin
James Buchanan
Premkumar Walekar
Sarah Ramos
Lori Ann Lewis-Rivera
Pascal Charlot
Dean Harold Meyers
Kenneth Bridges
Linda Franklin
Conrad Johnson
Caroline Seawell
Iran Brown
Jeffrey Hopper
Keenya Cook
Jerry Ray Taylor
Paul La Ruffa
Rupinder Oberoi
Muhammad Rahid
Million Woldemariam
Claudine Lee Parker
Kellie Adams
Hong Im Ballenger
Wright Williams, Jr.
Jeff Hopper.
Loading ...
“the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.”
Think of the killing of the murderer as nothingmore then killing the murderer a “little later” then it should have been done.
Or, to be really compassionate to the murderer, leave a cyanide tablet in his cell, and let him euthanize himself. A testament to “free will” in action.
But, let us conjecture on a Islamic terrorist being held against his will by only following his religion that praises killing for God’s sake. His mission was to murder as many Infidels as possible before joining his God in Paradise. And he/she did.
But, what if his fellow jihadist took Infidel women and children and murdered them in an attempt to free their warrior for God? Well it’s already happen. The first Twin/Tower attack was an effort to free the “blind cleric” Muslim terrorist. Muslim terrorist killed infidels in a effort to get the Badder Meinhoff terrorist freed from their prison sentence, also.
So, by the compassion of the naive Christian mind to not have exeecuted the blind cleric and those wacky German communist terrorist, more innocent life was murdered in the “name of God”.
Way to go.
PS. Never to be proven, but after the Muslim terrorist attack to free those murdering German communist, they were found dead in their prison cell. They committed suicide. Ya, that’s the ticket.
Now, we come to Major Nidal Hassan, and if he becomes a celebrity(opps, he already is) to the worshippers of the God of justified Murder, , and a faction of Muslims take’s some innocent infidels and slits their throat in a effort to get their jihadist freed from the infiidels, what are you going to do about it Val?
Allow innocent life to continue to be rightfully taken by God?
And so once I asked you ,why a soldier took Communion before battle, and you ignored the question.
Do you kill him, the prisoner, Val? That’s right, you murder him in his cell, and sacrifice your life, to save innocent life. Or do nothing, and let innocent life bleed away on Earth?
The blood of the saints cry out from the ground.
Btw.
In the above post, change “sacrifice your life” to sacrifice your soul, and your action of killing the prisoner is made to look like a suicide, or whatever your mind thinks up to get rid of the murderer in the cell.
Now, this is just a hypothetical to you Val, but the facts of the Twin Towers and Badder Meinghoff are true.
The Cape –
What part of “incarceration” is confusing you? What part of “there are armed guards in prisons that know how to shoot” are you forgetting about.
I do not believe that the answer to murder is murder. That is an oxy moron. The end never justifies the means. Sometimes that is very hard to understand – but it is the truth.
Val,
I think that what Cape is saying is that when you hold a terrorist, it can cause other terrorists that are NOT incarcerated to retaliate by killing more innocent people. This is part of the reason that the Pope didn’t speak out publicly against Hitler. Every time he did, the nazis would retaliate by killing even more Jews…as punishment.
So, Cape is asking if killing a prisoner will prevent more deaths. And if keeping them alive, could be used as a bargaining/blackmail tool.
At least I think that’s what he is saying. You can never be sure when you’re deciphering a code…
MK –
That is what I think too he means too. It’s just that I am discussing American Capital Punishment and The Cape is trying to switch the subject to Military tactics. That is a different subject entirely.
One is based on protection of a community. The other based around protection of a nation. They don’t compare. Which is why the Catechism discusses these subjects in two seperate sections. The Cape is trying to get me to argue apple to carrots and I refuse to go down that path.
For those interested in the Catholic Churches teachings of what is a just war you can go to Part 3 section 2 article 3. #2302 – 2317 in the Catechism.
ahhhhhh…then I’ll just shut up.
HUH? What does that mean? shut up? Never heard of it before.
MK is right.
That’s my point.
And I asked Val what she would do if put in such a situation(Badder Meinhoff) where innocent life is being taken to free a known murderer/jihadist.
Is it just ,to leave a death device in a cell of a convicted mass murderer and allow him/her to use their freewill and end their life?
You see Val, I’m asking you a question or two, that’s all.
Another question was asked about a soldier receiving Communion before he goes into battle.
Why would a person do that?
All the situations I’ve brought forth are working within the devil’s workshop, means, ends, oxymorons, all that reasoning is trapped in a situation where the devil runs the show.
.
I don’t love the death penalty but it is the right thing to do sometimes. I feel the need to remind everyone that prisons are staffed by non-criminals–librarians, nurses and other care givers, guards, and non-violent criminals. Their lives are absolutely as valuable and worthy of protection as anyone else’s. It makes no sense not to execute a violent killer, who will no more spare them than he did his original victim(s).
The Cape –
You can go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church if your scenerio’s are confusing to you. The answers are there.
A Jihadest would not be in a civilian jail. A mass murderer outside of war doesn’t have people that would be willing to die in order to free them. Therefore the topic of Capital Punishment is a moot point in your scenerio. I refuse to get into a discussion with you when you are trying to use moronic examples in an attempt to “prove me wrong” which you wouldn’t do because the hypothetics are being taken out of context.
Now, if we are discussing war and not capital punishment – you can go to the Catechism for my answer.
#2308 :
All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”
#2328:
The Church and human reason assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflicts. Practices deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes.
You asked:
“Another question was asked about a soldier receiving Communion before he goes into battle.
Why would a person do that?”
Why wouldn’t he do that?
Val.
The Badder Meinhoff “gang” weren’t a military organization.
Soo, my question is valid.
Either are jihadist a military organization.
What rank is OBL?
At best they are organized by ideology.
Is a military organization a ideological organization?, and if they are, then they are a armed unit of a ideology such as was the Badder boys/girls and the Muslim jihadist of today. But, they aren’t military.
The SS, or KGB had officers within the military to oversee that the military was being loyal to their ideas. That ain’t the military and the profesional military detested those scum. And you know that.
Soo, changing the subject to the military ain’t working Val.
Simply answer the questions posed to you; if you would eliminate the ideologist/religionist murderer who is being used as a reason to murder innocent human beings for his freedom.
Now, you see Val,
I asked you a question why a soldier would receive Communion, and you avoided answering the question because you have a bright mind, and know where a contradiction might be in the making. Or, you don’t have a bright mind and are simply being lazy by answering a question with a question to me. That’s intellectual dishonesty. And you know it.
Take a stab at why a person who is going on a killing spree would remove his previous sins by Confession, and then in a state of grace, receive the body of Christ. All the while, knowing he’s going to kill and murder, yes murder, human beings quite soon.
If you ask me directly to answer my question to you, I would answer the question to the best of my abilities, , but the question was directed to you Val.
If we kill someone the terrorists want freed, wouldn’t that just cause MORE retaliation? Just curious.
“It makes no sense not to execute a violent killer, who will no more spare them than he did his original victim(s).”
This isn’t a valid argument, IMO. Those locked up are held in such secure places they rarely pose a threat to the personnel that work there. In addition, the personnel are well trained to handle them. To kill someone who is at our mercy is not merciful and not just. Val is right. The ONLY way capital punishment can be justified (not GOOD or RIGHT. but justified) is if there were no other way to protect society. Our technology is so good that in our modern society the death penalty is practically useless.
Add on to that- the pro-death penalty elite are just as bad as the pro-abortion elite in the kind of legal and mental gymnastics they pull. The supreme courts have ruled in several states that they have the right to kill someone EVEN IF EVIDENCE SURFACES THAT PROVES THEM INNOCENT. And some of them do.
Shameful.
I’m with Val and Pip on this one.
“I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live” Deuteronomy 30:19
The Cape –
The Red Army Faction (I’m assuming that is who you mean by “Badder Meinhoff” gang) was a terrorist organization in Germany. They killed many people. When the leaders of the group were caught they were held in a prison in Germany and it was considered the most secure prison in the world. I do not believe anyone of their own members risked their lives in order to prevent their leaders from staying in prison. As a matter of fact the leaders were left by their group and one even starved to death while in prison (self induced starvation as a ‘protest’). I’m not sure where you get the “Muslim Terrorist killed infidels” to get them released. If memory serves there was a politician that was held hostage by a marxist terrorist group that had allied themselves with the Red Army Faction. They demanded the release of the prisoners. Prisoners were released but none of those prisoners were being charged with murder. There was more terror after that – hostages were killed when demands weren’t met and a prosecutor was killed I think – and the prisoners were found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. So….if you are asking if I agree with the way the authority’s handled the terrorist in the end – yes, I do agree. You noticed that once the authorities gave in and negotiated for the release of a hostage it just led to more hostages and more murders. I will never agree with giving into terrorists demands – even if that included me or members of my family’s life are in danger. I will sacrifice myself and my loved ones for the good of the community.
Jidahists are a terrorist organization. They have been primarily held in military prisons around the world when captured. The most famous prison being Guantanamo Bay. So, that is indeed related to the military.
“if you would eliminate the ideologist/religionist murderer who is being used as a reason to murder innocent human beings for his freedom.”
I believe history has shown that terrorists do not need a reason to kill. So killing one of their own does nothing to curb their terror. So why do it? Was that a good enough answer for you? Do I get a prize? It is still a moronic situation considering the groups you are talking about fall under the ideology of war – self proclaimed war by the very terrorists you keep saying had nothing to do with the military (you are aware that many terrorists group get their tactics from military strategies right?)…..So I have posted the Catholic Belief – ergo my belief – into these comments in response to what conduct should be done during war.
I also find it hypocritical to murder someone to stop murder. Violence begets more violence. Any civilized society knows that.
“I asked you a question why a soldier would receive Communion, and you avoided answering the question because you have a bright mind, and know where a contradiction might be in the making.”
How did I avoid the answer? I can’t fathom any reason why a soldier would not want to receive the Eucharist before going to war. If you are trying to make some “philosophical” point – then you are going to have to ask a more in depth question.
PIP –
“Val is right.”
Do you know how long it took me to get my chin up off the floor after reading that????
It is nice to agree every once in awhile, isn’t it?
Actually, I don’t think either of you is right, though I have a great deal of sympathy for your point of view. But you and all who really want to say absolutely no to the death penalty– How many prisoners, clerks, librarians, nurses, etc. are you willing to see die because a violent killer was not put out of commission? John Geoghan, one of the pedophile priests, who went to prison in Massachusetts a few years back was deliberately left alone in a cell with a psychopath who did what the guards intended– stomped the old man to death. Hey, it happens and who cares about an old pedophile, anyway?
Even pedophile priests deserve to have their lives protected. Defense of the weak and helpless, is a moral duty. Even when they are prisoners.
Maggie- if you are concerned about how defenseless people are being left alone with dangerous people, why not advocate for prison reform, in which these laws can be changed, rather than just gunning for death? Wouldn’t that be a more sustainable way to approach the problem, especially since it is likely violence is found in all sections of prisons and not just death row?
If that is the only reason you want to kill people- because you think those who work with prisoners are at risk- then you are on flimsy territory, argument wise. Any lack in security can be fixed with more security. A fundamental prison structure problem can be fixed by changing structure. Killing people won’t fix a fundamental problem of lack in security, it will only result in more killed people.
Unfortunately I can’t find many statistics of prison employees being killed so its hard for me to pinpoint what the problem may be or where it is likely occurring. Most of the stats I can find are deaths in custody…can you tell me where you get your statistics on this?
Death by starvation is one of the most painful. Yet this is the demise that Holger Meins, film student turned terrorist, either chose for himself or felt compelled to submit to. He was a large man, six feet four inches tall, but weighed less than one hundred pounds when he died of his hunger strike on November 11, 1974.
The 2 June Movement took revenge for what they regarded as the “murder” of Comrade Meins by the “pigs.” The Sunday after Meins’ death was the sixty-fourth birthday of Judge Günter von Drenkmann, the President of the West German Supreme Court. Von Drenkmann had never tried a RAF member but he was clearly a high-ranking representative of the system. The doorbell rang at his home and the judge answered it. He saw group of young men carrying bunches of flowers but did not have time to smell or receive them for they were carrying guns as well. They shot the judge dead.
=======================================================================The kidnapping of the Chairman of the West German Christian Democrats (CDU), Peter Lorenz, followed this murder. His captors wanted to secure the freedom of six incarcerated leftists or Lorenz would be killed
=======================================================================
The RAF group loaded the basement with TNT, and then called the German Press Agency to demand the release of all Baader-Meinhof prisoners. The kidnappers warned that a hostage would be shot every hour until this demand was met. After an hour, the economic attaché, Dr. Heinz Hillegard, was forced to an open window. He was shot dead and his corpse was left to hang out of the window.
=======================================================================
While this was going on, those holding Schleyer issued another ultimatum: two PALESTINIAN prisoners must be released and fifteen million in American dollars are to be paid for Schleyer’s ransom. They wanted the ransom delivered by the businessman’s son, Eberhard.
Unbeknownst to the four PALESTINIAN hijackers of the plane on its way to Somalia, they were tailed by a plane carrying a German antiterrorist unit. When the terrorists landed in Mogadishu, the second plane was right behind them and the antiterrorist unit stormed the first plane. Three of the hijackers were killed and the fourth arrested. Luckily no passengers or crewmembers were physically injured except for a female flight attendant who suffered a leg wound.
Back at Stammheim prison, Raspe had been closely following this drama on a small radio that had been smuggled in to him. When the plane was re-taken by West German authorities, Raspe communicated this dispiriting news to his comrades via a secret “phone” system the group had rigged up. Apparently, they decided the only way out of prison for them was through death and made a suicide pact.
During the night of October 18, which would become known as “Death Night” for the RAF leaders, Andreas Baader took a smuggled pistol out of its hiding place. He shot at the wall, then at a pillow (observers would later speculate that he did this to simulate a fight). Then he put the gun behind his neck and pulled the trigger with his thumb, blowing a hole through the top of his forehead.
Jan-Carl Raspe put a smuggled gun to his temple and pulled the trigger.
The bodies of Ensslin and Baader are removed from Stammheim Prison
Gudrun Ensslin chose a method of suicide similar to that of Ulrike Meinhof. Ensslin took a piece of speaker wire and ran it through the narrow mesh grating covering her window. Then she made a noose, put her head through it, stood on a chair and kicked the chair out from under herself.
Irmgard Möller stabbed herself four times in the chest with a stolen knife. She came within millimeters of her heart.
In the morning, guards found Baader and Ensslin dead in their cells. Raspe was still alive but died soon after being rushed to the hospital. The life of Möller was saved. When she recovered, she vehemently denied stabbing herself but claimed that she and her deceased comrades had been attacked, giving rise to persistent rumors that this was a governmental mass murder.
However, by that time the RAF had dwindled considerably and its few remaining members were growing worn-out and disillusioned. The West German government offered leniency to those who surrendered and several took advantage of this offer, spending relatively small amounts of time behind bars for their crimes. An ailing Irmgard Möller was released in 1994 after serving twenty-two years behind bars.
=======================================================================
In 1998, a communiqué was sent to Reuters declaring the RAF officially disbanded. It was highly anticlimactic for the group had been quiet for some time.
=======================================================================
The Red Army Faction DEMANDED the release of Badder Meinhoff gang members.
So, many innocent people were being murdered by the RAF to get their communist and PALESTINIAN JIHADIST to be released.
But, it died out after the leaders of the Badder Meinhoff gang were eliminated by suicide.
=======================================================================
Now, if you believe they all agreed to commit suicide, and even had access to pistols in your maximum prisons, you are easily lead to the “official line” of a government. Moller denied trying to commit suicide. “When she recovered, she vehemently denied stabbing herself but claimed that she and her deceased comrades had been attacked, giving rise to persistent rumors that this was a governmental mass murder.”
And if they were murdered in prison, to stop the reason for the murder of innocent human beings, I declare it justified. You apparently would allow the murders to continue for the sake of your soul not being unblemished by “commiting a suicide” of a murderer. What difference does it make Val, if you assist in helping a murderer commit suicide, to stop the slaughter of MORE innocent human life, , since you can go to Confession anyway, and wash away that sin, as other sins have been forgiven?
=======================================================================
Again, why does the soldier take Communion before a battle?
You keep answering with a return question.
It’s not about “why a soldier would NOT want to receive the Eucharist before going to war.”, the question is why would he take Communion before battle.
Give me your reasons for taking Communion before a battle, Val.
I’m putting you in the situation of the soldier, if you can’t answer the question any other way.
But, I guess we have to go back to the reason for Communion, for you to begin to understand why a soldier goes to Confession, then takes the body of Christ withIN him.
What are your reasons for a soldier taking Communion before battle,Val?
Don’t answer with a rhetorical question back to me. Such as Why not?
Correction.
“You apparently would allow the murders to continue for the sake of your soul not being unblemished by “commiting a suicide” of a murderer”.
Changed to:
“You apparently would allow the murders to continue for the sake of your soul not being BLEMISHED by “commiting a suicide” of a murderer”
“I believe history has shown that terrorists do not need a reason to kill. So killing one of their own does nothing to curb their terror”
Your going down the road of Obama ,Val.
Do you not think Major Hasan was, and is a jihadist? Afterall, his own words and actions give reason why he murdered those infidels. ALLAH AKBAR.
Terrorism is the ACTION of ideology, ideas, and a ideology is based on REASON.
I think its easy to get caught up in saying ‘Kill him!’, when we hear about a horrible crime. But, for me.. murder is wrong.
Plus, there is someone who has to inject the prisoner.. someone has to pull the switch… in our anger we are asking another human to DO the killing.
It isnt up to us, our time on earth ends when God decides, not us.
The death penalty doesnt deter crime.
Stuck in prison with no possibility of parole sounds worse to me anyway.
Took me along time to come to this point of view. If it was someone I loved who was murdered… I would want revenge too. However, it doesnt bring them back.
The Cape –
You have not justified giving the terrorist the means to kill himself. Sorry. I will no longer reply – not because I can’t – but because I have a huge paper due for English and I work Thursday and Friday…….I’m sure this topic will come up again.
Maggie –
“Defense of the weak and helpless, is a moral duty.”
So the defense of the weak and helpless is to kill them? Seriously?
As for the workers – I agree with PIP that statistics to back up your claims would be good. I’ve tried to do a google search, but I can’t find anything. To be fair, I also can’t figure out a good way to describe what I’m trying to find in few words.
However, the employees chose the job. They are not forced there and they are not forced to stay. If they went into that career profession with the rosy glasses that the convicted criminals would be polite and nice, then they need a reality check. PLUS the workers either have guns or have guards with guns around when they are with the prisoners. There lives are protected. With your logic, we should put more people on death row than what we have. Only 0.4% of prisoners are on death row according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics Jail Statistics so if we executed them all today the prison system will not change.
Ironically, when I typed “Prison employees killed by inmates, statistics” into “BING”, all that came up were crimes perpetrated by employees ON the prisoners.
Not one article came up about employees being attacked by prisoners.
Defense of the weak and helpless is a moral duty. How does that equate to “so the defense of the weak and helpless is to kill them?” Honestly, where on earth do you get that from? No, the defense of the weak and helpless is to kill those who would harm them, if that is what it takes to protect them. Honestly, I know this is an emotional issue but c’mon, people. We have to try a little harder here.
PIP– this is preposterous: “Any lack in security can be fixed with more security. A fundamental prison structure problem can be fixed by changing structure. ”
You haven’t been within two miles of a prison in your life, have you? This is pure fantasy. A man who is secured in such a way that he can never harm anyone is in a steel room with no windows or doors. Of course, how he gets food is another issue–or fresh air– but, hey! We feel good about ourselves.
The only way to safeguard other humans is to keep them away from him. So that windowless, doorless room is the way to go. It is clear that this is a much more humane solution than the death penalty, right?
Oops. I missed a couple of comments– Kristi- the death penalty does deter crime. Of course, counting the exact number of crimes that don’t take place is tough. But what do we know for sure? Well, every recidivist murderer who has killed a 2nd time (or a third, fourth, etc.) would have been deterred if he had been executed after the first murder. I have read that Ted Bundy said that he chose to go to Florida because he mistakenly believed that it did not have the death penalty.
Valerie- This is plain callous: However, the employees chose the job. (So they deserve to die at the hands of a psychopath?) They are not forced there and they are not forced to stay. If they went into that career profession with the rosy glasses that the convicted criminals would be polite and nice, then they need a reality check. PLUS the workers either have guns or have guards with guns around when they are with the prisoners
This is dangerous work and people who go into it rarely have lots of wonderful career choices. Prison guard is not a “profession”. It is a hard job that people who aren’t equipped to go into professions take. Maybe you might reconsider and extend to them the same empathy you are extending to killers?
Have you? I have been inside a both a state prison for my job (sales/training). Yes, they are dangerous, yes there are people there that would harm you… So you’re answer to murder is murder? How about lets just kill all “dangerous” people… As for your bleif that it “prevents crime”… If so explain the 3 million people locked up? Do you think John Allen Muhammad “feared” getting a lethal injection when he was committing his crime? Or how about any of the other “sickos” that are out there? How about the serial murder/rapist that was just caught in Cleveland? Was he worried about getting electrocuted? Those that get the death penalty are not concerned or afraid of the consequences…
Now, I didn’t and will not feel sorry for John Allen Muhammad. I will not mourn the lose of his life. I am not going to go out and protest executions or write my congressman to try and end capital punishment. Yet, I would vote to end it tomorrow and I would not sentence someone to death. I don’t believe that state sponsored vengeance (executions) is that useful. I may eventually feel guilty enough to say a very short prayer for his soul and that God should have mercy on it.
I agree, Stu.
I am not going to go hold a candle at a prison either. But murder is murder.
Its pretty easy to sit on the sidelines saying “kill him’…when isnt you that has to pull the switch or put a needle in another human beings arm and do the execution. Another human being was murdered last night….just because the state did it in a sterile manor, he had the opportunity to plead for his life (unlike the 10 people he killed)… he had time to repent… it was still a taking of a life.
We arent God.
Maggie –
“This is dangerous work and people who go into it rarely have lots of wonderful career choices. Prison guard is not a “profession”. It is a hard job that people who aren’t equipped to go into professions take. Maybe you might reconsider and extend to them the same empathy you are extending to killers?”
Prison guard is a profession. Why would it not be? It is listed in the BLS occupational handbook as a profession. I’m not sure where you get that from, just because it isn’t a desirable job for some?
I was a veterinary technician for 7 years. I took responsibility for my career choice. I could have been maimed (almost was by an insane 150 pound rottweiler) or mauled at any given time. I was hospitalized 3 times in those 7 years because of bites. (one time I had to get my fingernail pulled off because of risk of infection after a cat bite.) Taking responsibility for the choices you make is essential to this life. There are multiple security job guard positions that do not involve a jail system. So, why are they there? It is their choice. I’m not being cavalier towards them, it is called reality. When I got tired of getting bit and my life literally being at risk, I quit my job. It really is that simple.
Once again, you have not provided us with any information to back up your claim that these jobs are life threatening and dangerous. You gave us an example of a prisoner being attacked by another prisoner, with an implication that it was the guards that put the prisoner in harms way. And you say it is the guards job that is being threatened?
Wow. And I thought the homosexual marriage thread was emotional! This is a tortured mess. Execution of criminals, who are really guilty, is not murder. If it were, the Church would outlaw the death penalty. While it has tapped danced all around it, it does not outlaw the death penalty because it is not murder and it is biblical.
It is part of the dumbing down of society, and the “everybody is equally outstanding” that we call jobs, even the bluest collar of them, “professions”. I am not going to go there except to say that the idea that a high school grad with no prospects has “professional” choices before him is preposterous. We all know people who would choose to be a prison guard over being a dentist or a lawyer or, a licensed electrician.
Stu– you need to read what I wrote again. You clearly did not read it carefully or think about it, at all. You just reacted and, in so doing, responded to someone else. You did not respond to what I wrote at all.
Maggie-
Every job has its dangers and problems. But you seem to say that there is something fundamentally wrong with how security in the prison systems work. Instead of going off on your tangent again please explain how it’s ‘right’ to murder people as a response rather than advocating for changes in they way they run security? If we killed every violent criminal, we (and you) would have a lot of blood on our hands. But if you are not arguing this, then what are you arguing, exactly?
Also, please, I would love some statistics to back up this claim.
“If it were, the Church would outlaw the death penalty.”
Actually on the whole the Church and its members are very involved in ending the death penalty. Using the ‘its biblical’ argument is the same as saying the bible only punishes induced miscarriage with a fine, ergo, abortion is okay. Or, the Isrealites slaughtered whole cities, therefore we can slaughter whoever we feel the need to. Modern society is different than biblical society so we need to adapt its teachings to modern life. The pope has been pretty clear on the matter.
I would recommend you watch ‘At the Death House Door’ about a pastor who counseled the prisoners 24 hours before they died in a Texas prison. Being involved in an execution is terrible work. For a long time Missouri didn’t even execute anyone, because they couldn’t find a doctor who would do it. It’s completely unethical.
deathpenaltyinfo.org/node/1775
Stu is right. Most murders are a crime of passion. They do not think about the death penalty in the moment. Usually the cold and calculated murderers simply do not care. They may just try harder not to get caught. The statistics are pretty interesting though:
deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates
Also, considering the state has to spend millions of dollars to kill one person is enough to make me wonder where the fiscal responsibility watchdogs are on this?
Maggie –
Stu quoted your question and then answered it. I’m not sure why you think he wasn’t talking to you.
“that the idea that a high school grad with no prospects has “professional” choices before him is preposterous. We all know people who would choose to be a prison guard over being a dentist or a lawyer or, a licensed electrician.”
Exactly what in the heck are you suggesting? I happen to know a man who didn’t even complete the 9th grade of school and became the president of an international corporation. So, a person who chooses prison guard can’t be someone who is in college majoring in criminal justice planning to be a probation officer? Or studying to be a detective? Or studying to be a psychologists? Why are you assuming that people who chose to be security guards aren’t smart enough to have goals and desires and using the guard profession as a means to help their education?
“If it were, the Church would outlaw the death penalty. ”
What Church are you talking about? I’ve quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which states the death penalty is immoral and goes against God’s teachings of respecting life.
“Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
Maggie,
You know I love you. But I think you’re wrong on this one. And it isn’t sentiment that leads me to say so. As far as I’m concerned dropping these guys in the middle of the ocean with no life jacket and an anchor, and wishing them luck is fine by me.
But the church does take a stand on the issue.
http://www.americancatholic.org/News/DeathPenalty/BishopsDeath.asp
and, the popes own words…
In brief, God’s mercy is our salvation, our very source of life, said the pope. Therefore we must open our hearts to God’s mercy and we, too, must be merciful to others. “In the Mass and in Eucharistic Adoration we meet the merciful God of love that passes through the heart of Jesus Christ,” he said.
The core of the homily was a challenge to America to heed this mercy and thus become unconditionally pro-life in every situation: abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, racism, poverty, even capital punishment. “I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary,” he said. “Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.”
http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr1999/feature1.asp#F6
more…
http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0195.asp
Yippie! I love playing this game…. Here are your words…. Which is why I installed the “quote comments” plugin on the blog. Click the link it will take you directly to your words.
So a) you did say it and b) maybe you ought to get to know the people around here before you make the leap to assume that others don’t actually know the “real world”… PIP may be a wet behind the ear college kid, but she is very intelligent she (just needs to realize she is wrong and I am right
and your “opinion” just like all “opinions” hold no greater value than another. Until some one can show me their parchment that proves their expertise, it is just an “opinion”.
Welcome to 2SecondsFaster by the way.
Stu
2SF Admin
PIP: “Being involved in an execution is terrible work. For a long time Missouri didn’t even execute anyone, because they couldn’t find a doctor who would do it.”
I wish this was the case for abortionists.
Amen on that!
Me too Jasper, me too.
“You have not justified giving the terrorist the means to kill himself. Sorry”
Val, Val, Val,
You can get soo petulant sometimes.
Because I have justified myself morally by defending innocent life against a known murderer, and his murdering comrades/jihadist who use the prisoner to continue murderering human beings until he’s released, you leave the subect from simple frustration.
The OBJECT for the continued murderering of innocent life is eliminated. That’s what happen in the case of the Badder Meinhoff gang and the defenders of that gang known as the RAF. Leadership is fundamental to any action of humans.
You see, by making it personal, you take it too personal. But, if one is to actually understand and comprehend a subject, sometimes the personal approach is useful in a colloquy.
I take on a sin to try and stop the murder of innocent human beings, while you stay unblemished under the conclusion of violence begets violence and actually do nothing to stop the situation of Evil. . A murderer is not equal to innocent life and doesn’t deserve the love of God, but the love of the Evil he worshipped and the Evil does find him/her lovable. It’s that equal thing again, Val. It ends in moral equalness, or equivilence.
What a exquistite game the terrorist has begun, taking innocent life for some idea formed from religion, or some “ism” to numerable for me to remember. You refuse to play the game, which actually exist in this world, and think I’m moronic for bringing to your attention two examples of terrorist using innocent life as a tool for the release of their leadership.
In the end, I sin to save, you stay “lily white”.
I jump into hell to eliminate the object of why the terrorist are murdering innocent life, and you think my reasons and subject matter are moronic.
Afterall, two reasons can be used to allow myself to assist in the suicide of the murdering terrorist by your reasoning itself Val, God still loves me anyway, and Confession washes away my sin.
But, we all know you have made me a moron and have lost respect for me, but won’t admit it, since it wouldn’t be loving to admit that love is respect anyway.
Now, think about that soldier going to Communion, and you might think about how your moral superiority grates on that soldier. Then think about how many soldiers left your Catholicism from going Tolstoy on him. The decline of Catholicism and all Christianity is equal to the amount of war in the Twentieth Century. The father transmits to his son and daughter his story eventually, with words or not, but a spirit that is seen by those children.
The Cape –
I have no idea what you are talking about. Honestly. I didn’t make anything personal – and I explained that I didn’t have time to get into the deep discussion because of an english paper (Stu and MK can verify that.) This isn’t the first time we have discussed this and won’t be the last. So, allowing myself to keep my ‘A’ in English is worth it to leave the discussion as it is until a later date. However, I think you have victimized and sacrificed yourself enough – so perhaps it will not continue.
ACK! PIP and Jasper agree with each other! MK and I are agreeing with PIP! This is it! It’s the end of the world! I just know it!
Hey folks,
It took some time to read these posts. I have a ‘different’ outlook on many of the comments posted. Why so? I guess because circumstances in my life ‘forced’ me into a reappraisal of this whole life – death thing; eternal vs everlasting life; … .
Much of this started by my objecting to the common sentiment that peace = lack-of-war. To me this is as preposterous as saying: ‘love = a lack of hate’. Yet this and several other things (like ‘freedom’) are treated as if they are known/understood and commonplace. They are, like the silly concept of ‘peace’, so riddled with holes … they need re-defining.
‘the cape’ (I think) is ‘hinting’ at this (with the soldier/mass-murderer justifiable-suicide concepts). Sorry Val, his ideas are as silly as my Catholic aunt proudly telling me of the-good-old-days when an attending nurse would accidentally(on purpose) leave a window open at night so the hanging-on patient would get pneumonia and quickly die. We now have penicillin (+ an armada of drugs) but we have not updated our societal practices toward life.
The present practice of execution could lead to a re-vamping, but even its elimination would be another out-of-site = out-of-mind trick, and not confront us with death. It would be similar to not bringing children to funerals. Dismissal of the bluntness of death: has provoked some weird beliefs in kids. IMO it is TIME to fashion something better!!!!!
John.
I take on a sin to stop the murder of innocent humans by eliminating the object of their actions, which is to get their leadership freed by murdering innocent humans.
I assist in the suicide of a murderer, or if you wish, murder the murderer, which isn’t equal to your aunt. What sin had her patient commited, murder of innocent life for a “ism”?
Soo, if the comparison doesn’t fit, you must acquit…….me!!
Second, using the formula of Val and Mk, God loves us equally, and Confession, my action is actually meaningless in the end, towards my love of God and his love of me.
Cape,
That would mean that you only do what you do to gain God’s love, which is immaterial as He loves you no matter what you do.
So why would you spare someones life? Even your enemies? It’s easy to spare the life of the innocent. But do you have what it takes to spare the life of someone that deserves death? Isn’t that what mercy is all about? Justice is getting what you deserve, mercy is NOT getting what you deserve?
Aren’t we called to be merciful? Won’t we be treated with mercy according to the mercy we have shown?
You don’t show mercy, or do anything else to gain God’s love. You show mercy because you already love God, and this is what the One Who loves you, has asked of you.
In Bible Class, we’ve been studying the Beattitudes. Did you know they are “ordered”? Beginning with humility and ending with peace (not the absence of war
).
Humility
Sorrow for your failings
Hungry for the truth
Following Him
Obeying Him
Forgiving others
Detachment
Peace
Mercy is pretty far down on that list. Once you start pointing fingers at who deserves to die and who deserves to live, you have lost sight of the narrow gate, and begun to try to “be” God instead of be “like” Him…
Doncha think?
the cape,
there are at least two ‘problems’ (not with the words you use …. ie sin and Confession) but more in how you use these words, that tells me that there is a ‘problem’. It is most difficult to describe sin as if sin was a spiritual-thing. A sin is the breaking of a love-bond (((really several love-bonds))) and to consider this as a type of ‘thing’, causes even more difficulties. Confession seeks to restore these love-bonds, especially between God and the penitent(His kid) … + those between His family and the penitent. By going to communion [com-uniare' meaning 'together-as-one'] the soldier is preparing to-kill/be-killed by his brother. When Jesus said: “Forgive them! They know not what they do”, He wasn’t fooling.
Consider the alternative: confession is the ritual to erase sins …. something like getting-out spiritual-spots/blemishes on the chalk-board we call: the soul. It is ‘going to’ heaven when we die. Didn’t Jesus die, so we could be alive IN Him at BAPTISM???
John,
In that same Bible Class we were discussing God as our Father, and I told them about you….how you call God, Daddy, Dad, etc. It really got the point that the priest was making across. God is not “over there”. He’s not a foreigner, or a fable, or a myth. He’s our parent. Our “Da” as the Irish would say…
Your comment (above) was awesome.
Someone asked: What Church are you talking about? I’ve quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which states the death penalty is immoral and goes against God’s teachings of respecting life.
No, it doesn’t. Where do you see the words “immoral” or “goes against God’s teachings..”? in what you quoted? I just went back and read the surrounding paragraphs againl Nothing there about it being immoral or failing to respect life.
“Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm—without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself—the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
Those words just aren’t there. This is what I mean by an emotional response. I really had to think hard about coming back here– while these responses are heartfelt, they are not well-thought out and because of that you have cast me in the role of heartless killer. I have some problems with that.
Not once has anyone used the word justice in this discussion. Do you really deny that some crimes deserve the death penalty? Do you have any notion how unjustly you are acting against the victim and his family? The community? And yet again I come back to the people who must interact with the vicious killers. Yes, I spent a little time today digging out the stats. Prisoner on prisoner violence resulting in death or serious injury is far more common than prisoner on guard violence resulting in death. So what? Other prisoners have a right to be to be safe; to be defended against aggression.
The Catechism addresses the “medicinal” aspect of punishment as well. That is a fancy way of saying that wrong doers deserve to be punished. Are there crimes so terrible that the killer deserves to die? I would say so.
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people’s rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.
Again. Using the word murder of the death penalty (assuming a fair and just trial and conviction) is an inappropriate appeal to emotion. If the Church held it to be murder, it would ban it, just as it bans abortion, euthanasia and suicide. It has not and for the reasons I have already alluded to. Yes, it is working hard to abolish it. But it wouldn’t have to, if it had biblical warrant for banning it. It doesn’t.
Stu– I stand by what I said. You did not read my words carefully. I said, relatively plainly:
Kristi- the death penalty does deter crime. Of course, counting the exact number of crimes that don’t take place is tough. But what do we know for sure? Well, every recidivist murderer who has killed a 2nd time (or a third, fourth, etc.) would have been deterred if he had been executed after the first murder.
So, do you fault this rather simple proposition? Apart from the fact that the killer didn’t think things over, but was prevented (deterred) from killing again by being, uh… dead?
I have read that Ted Bundy said that he chose to go to Florida because he mistakenly believed that it did not have the death penalty.
Is Bundy likely to be the only murderer to have made these calculations? Or do we have evidence that others have too? Now, I am far more persuaded that the death penalty is just in certain cases because it is the appropriate penalty for the crime than I am by its deterrence value but it is pretty hard to deny that it does, at least, prevent the executed killer from killing again.
maggie, I hate to tell you this, but you read a LOT of things into our posts, especially that our responses to your arguments are “emotional” when you have yet to truly address what the heart of our arguments are. Furthermore, most of your posts *are* based on emotion, but because they seem to be coming out of something personal, I will leave that alone.
Here are the main points you fail to address:
1. I’d like a source on your stats- where you got them from.
2. You say that it is a deterrent on someone to kill someone (duh). But you said it does deter crime. I showed some statistics that seem to lead otherwise. Statistics aren’t emotional. So as far as evidence goes, there needs to be more from you to back up your claim.
3. In 1999, the pope said: “I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.” (americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr1999/feature1.asp#F6)
He has also expressed that “The problem must be viewed in the context of a system of penal justice ever more in line with human dignity” (pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/popestate.html)
He has also said: “May Christmas help to strengthen and renew, throughout the world, the consensus concerning the need for urgent and adequate measures to halt the production and sale of arms, to defend human life, to end the death penalty, to free children and adolescents from all forms of exploitation, to restrain the bloodied hand of those responsible for genocide and crimes of war, to give environmental issues, especially after the recent natural catastrophes, the indispensable attention which they deserve for the protection of creation and of human dignity!” (Pope John Paul II, Christmas Day Message, 1998)
The pope seems clear on this issue. It’s blatant. “No more capital punishment.” It’s as blatant as saying “no more abortion.” If you needlessly kill someone, even on a practical level, I’d still call it morally wrong, and yes, murder. Because it’s not just. Justice is not vengeance and when justice can be done without killing someone, I’d try to go for that.
4.If practicality is your game, then hopefully you are appalled by the laws that allow innocent people to be murdered after proof of their innocence, and the fact that it takes millions of taxpayer money to carry out a capital punishment trial and kill the person. Not to mention you will be dragging in people in the medical profession, making them go against the code of healing to carry out perceived “justice.”
Please address these issues; we aren’t attacking you, but we want you to be intellectually honest in your arguments. And for God’s sake, if none of us are answering what your arguments are, then put them in more plain language so we can stop trying to guess what you mean by them.
Forgot to address this:
“Do you have any notion how unjustly you are acting against the victim and his family”
For this, I ask you to look at this page:
deathpenaltyinfo.org/victims-and-death-penalty
Has some good thoughts out there..
“ACK! PIP and Jasper agree with each other! MK and I are agreeing with PIP! This is it! It’s the end of the world! I just know it!”
And Stu too! It’s a Thanksgiving miracle!
MK.
It’s quite simple MK.
Bless me Father for I have sinned. I assisted in the suicide of a murderer whose imprisonment was the reason for the murder of innocent humans, who had nothing to do with the cause of the jihadist/communist imprisonment.
I have sinned to save innocent life, while others prayed for peace, which didn’t come until I took on the sin of murder. I sacrifice my soul for innocent life.
Soo, there, I can now be free of sin, and also, God still loves me as equally as the sinless MK, and Val. In fact Mk, your the priest who heard my confession, and now your burdened with turning me in to the authorities or showing me some of that mercy you write about. What you gonna do MK? Either way, I walk away with my conscience unburdened since I was forgiven by Christ when he was on the Cross for all mankind…..forever.
John.
I boke the love bond between me and God, to stop the breaking of the love bond that imprisoned terrorist were using to murder the love. bond.
Love bonds were restored amongst Creation with the sin I commited. No more murder by the murderers who were demanding freedom for their leadership. Remember, I’m not taking innocent life, but a person(s) who lived by the sword of murdering innocent life.
Soo, in essence, I descended into hell, to stop the hell created by murderering terrorist.
“That would mean that you only do what you do to gain God’s love, which is immaterial as He loves you no matter what you do.” by MK.
That’s right, it’s immaterial if I assisted removing the reason/object that innocent life is being taken by a murderering organization to free the murderer.
And since I can’t gain God’s love by actions, why do anything anyway. Or if I do anything, it means nothing since your theology makes actions irrelevent in regards to “He loves you no matter what you do”
Actions are useless to gaining God’s love. . . It’s all about God loves you no matter what. What I got here, is Protestant theology hiding under selected quotes from the Catechism readings of MK.
Now, ain’t that a barn burner?
Maggie,
I’d say I had addressed the justice issue. Certainly I used the word “justice”.
I also quoted the Pope:
Granted, he doesn’t actually use the words immoral or “goes against God’s teachings”, but “In the Mass and in Eucharistic Adoration we meet the merciful God of love that passes through the heart of Jesus Christ,” pretty much covers God’s teachings and “cruel and uneccessary” pretty much covers “immoral”.
Cape,
First, you don’t presume on God’s mercy. That’s a bit arrogant, no?
Second, the seal of the confessional unburdens me. I need not tell a soul.
Third, loving equally does not mean letting you do whatever you want. If one of my kids took that attitude with me, I’d boot his arse out onto the curb. “Well, I can steal cash from her purse, cuz I’m gonna give a dollar of it to the homeless guy, and besides mom loves me, so all I’ll have to do is say I’m soooooory and she’ll be cool about it.”
God loves Satan too, remember? He didn’t get a free pass.
Again, why do you do the “right” thing? Because you love Him? Or because you know he’ll love you even if you deliberately go against His wishes. Many a soul will spend eternity in hell…where God still loves them.
Fourth, I never said that God loves you so go ahead and do what you want. You are the one claiming that if He loves you He’ll let you do anything that you want. YOU, not I, are equating “LOVE” with “FREE PASS”. That’s not what love means to me, and I don’t believe it’s what love means to God, either. Protestant theology, my rump!
Lastly, if that’s how you view confession and use the confessional, you’ve got a lot more to worry about than just defending the death penalty.
Spoken like a man that thinks he IS God.
Are you not presuming to tell others what mercy is to be applied to a person that takes on sin to save innocent life?
Whose being arrogant here?
I take on a sin, and you are going into some world that avoids my sacrifice by any means possible. My point is that I sinned and you answer with “you only do what you do to gain some love”. No kidding, Ya, I assisted in the suicide of a person that was loving the Devil, and since God loves the Devil, I’m pleasing them both with my sin of saving innocent life from death. Or am I pleasing only the Devil MK? But, since you make my actions immaterial to God loving me, and loves the Devil as much as me, I’m now thinking about worshipping the Devil with no concern about his love for me.
You can’t see that your leading people to a theology of Protestantism, where actions mean nothing to your morality and gaining heaven is founded on; “That would mean that you only do what you do to gain God’s love, which is immaterial as He loves you no matter what you do.”
Read what you wrote and the fact he loves you no matter what you do.
Straight out Protestant theology and that actions mean nothing since Grace(which is God’s love) is the factor that decides our Eternity.
Love bonds were restored amongst Creation with the sin I commited. No more murder by the murderers who were demanding freedom for their leadership.
Spoken like a man that thinks he IS God.
Yep, I stopped the murder of God’s Creation by murderers , which helped restore the bonds of love between human beings and God, that are easily broken by the murder of their kinfolk. I stopped murder, while you remain lily white.
And what did you do MK?
Would you assist in the suicide of a murderer, whose is murdering God’s innocent children and women to gain his release?
No, you wouldn’t take on that sin, would you?
You allow innocent life to continue to be taken from God’s Creation, while I sin and go to Heaven anyway. Or maybe Hell. Afterall your left not knowing God’s judgement, which means all you write is meaningless in matters of Eternity/Heaven/Hell and my soul.
.
You didn’t say it, but stand by your words? Thanks for voting for it before you voted against it Mr. Kerry.
That doesn’t make any sense at all. You didn’t respond to what I wrote. Period. What sense does it make to claim that I contradicted myself or whatever it is you are claiming? If you can’t respond, you can’t but at least have decency to drop it. I stand by what I wrote. I don’t stand by what you think I wrote.
Pip, I don’t have a clue what you are going on about. I object to being told that I want to kill people preemptively when I have stated clearly that I don’t like the death penalty and do not support its use except in limited circumstances. All of you are still tap dancing around the fact that the Church has not banned it because it cannot. It is Biblical and it is perfectly appropriate in certain circumstances.
Maggie,
At this point I find a discussion with a rock more interesting than to continue this conversation with you. If you can’t even stick to or remember your own words when they are put in front of you, then you are a waste of my time.
Maggie.
I promise to never write that a discussion with you is a discussion with a rock.
So rock on Maggie, and keep on rolling so no moss can gather on ya.
“Lastly, if that’s how you view confession and use the confessional, you’ve got a lot more to worry about than just defending the death penalty”
Now MK,
What did I say wrong in my Confession.
Bless me father, I have sinned.
I have stopped the murdering of innocent life by helping a murderer commit suicide.
Is it the contrition I left out?
I am heartly sorry for my sin of stopping the murder of innocent people you created, by killing by suicide, the murderer. of your creation.
Now, am I now in a state of grace and can receive Communion?
Meanwhile, you sit about ………and do nothing to stop the murdering going on, which is based on freeing a gang of murderers..
Evil spreads and I stop it by commiting a sin, so you may be safe in your lily white world.
No, I remain obedient.
Cape,
Well, duh. That’s the choice each of us has to make, is it not? For the fiftieth time, YOU, not I, do things to gain God’s love. Don’t put that on me. I already have His love. What I want is to please Him. Which I can do best by obeying him. It is not your job to decide who gets mercy and who doesn’t. It’s pretty clear in about 10,000 Gospel passages that EVERYONE deserves your mercy. Justice is GOD’S.
You think you’re some sort of hero for killing in God’s name? What are you…a Muslim terrorist? I’m pretty sure God is quite capable of dealing with any sins man commits without your help…seriously.
You want so badly to make the fact that I believe God loves us all equally to mean that God is pleased with all of us equally, or that God will deal with all of us the same way. Which brings us right back to John’s original question…what does it mean to be “equal”….As I said, it means to be loved equally by God. What it does NOT mean, and let me say this slowly because you are clearly not hearing me, or are purposely being obtuse…
Equal does NOT mean the same.
So help me, if you imply one more time that I think that God loving us equally, means that it doesn’t matter what I do cuz God will still welcome into the kingdom, I will be done with this conversation.
God loves me. God loves you. God loves Osama Bin Laden, God love Barack Obama. This does NOT mean that all of us will gain entrance to the banquet. It simply means that we all have the equal opportunity to, if we want. If that’s what we CHOOSE.
Cape,
LOL…I’m the priest, right? You said so? Well, I”m not going to give you absolution because I do not believe that you ARE contrite. I believe you suffer from “savior complex” and envision yourself a hero, that thinks he is more capable of doing God’s job, than God is.
Doing nothing? Prayer, my friend. Prayer. Prayer for the souls of these men and women, prayer for their victims, prayer for this sick, sick world. That’s what I do. I offer up my grocery shopping, my toilet cleaning, my fights with my kids and husband, my backaches….I fast. I pray a daily rosary. I try to go to daily mass. The greatest prayer that there is.
One prayer is more powerful than one million death penalties. My God is an awesome God. He has asked for prayer, humility, obedience and sacrifice. You are showing wrong action, pride, disobedience and sacrifice to false gods.
Sorry. No absolution for you.
the cape,
There are a few things to remember here. The first is that man’s notions of innocence and God’s notions of innocence are quite different. A prime example is the notion of original sin. Even Mary (the Immaculate Conception) did not mete out punishment . Justice is likewise different for God and man. Please note the story of the woman caugh in adultery.
Jesus also left us an example of His healing the rift caused by sin. He DIED/dies to atone for our injustice (our so-called innocence). He did/does not kill us all to placate any rage, but instead The Eternal One actually was crucified to death and still dies for us and our transgressions.
Like Jesus, I identify strongly with all fallen men … even murderers … our ‘innocent’ too. Such distinctions (as those you have made) may not-even-apply.. So its questionable whether you have any right to make these distinctions and presume a justice greater than God’s.
“I don’t have a clue what you are going on about. I object to being told that I want to kill people preemptively when I have stated clearly that I don’t like the death penalty and do not support its use except in limited circumstances.”
Maybe you need to re-read your own words. You opened up with “but you and all who really want to say absolutely no to the death penalty– How many prisoners, clerks, librarians, nurses, etc. are you willing to see die because a violent killer was not put out of commission?” , continued with “It makes no sense not to execute a violent killer, who will no more spare them than he did his original victim(s)” and ended with “Execution of criminals, who are really guilty, is not murder.” One could argue that any killer is a ‘violent one’ (never heard of a nonviolent killer have you?), so this does imply that you are okay with killing any ‘violent killers.’ So how would we know what you mean when you didn’t say it?
You did say you didn’t love it, but wouldn’t a pro-choicer say that about abortion? “I don’t love abortion, I’m not pro-abortion, I’m just pro-choice.” Whether you ‘like it’ or not is not what we are objecting to. It’s the many assertions you make and refuse to address that we object to. “I don’t know what you are talking about” doesn’t qualify as addressing an argument.
“All of you are still tap dancing around the fact that the Church has not banned it because it cannot. It is Biblical and it is perfectly appropriate in certain circumstances.”
We clearly showed you how the Pope has said over and over that he wants the death penalty to end because those ‘certain circumstances’ are much rarer than you imply (i.e. does not equate ‘certain circumstances’ to ‘violent killers’). He considers it (except in VERY unlikely circumstances) contrary to human dignity. When one uses the justice system for unjust acts, it IS contrary to human dignity. Needlessly killing someone is unjust. You keep tap dancing around this fact.
You have the right to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Maggie –
There is nothing section 2266 in the Catechism that discussing the death penalty. What you copied: “Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense” That does not mean the death penalty. Punishment is removal from society so the harm can no longer be done. The Catechism is VERY clear that they see no reason to justify capital punishment anymore because of the improvement of our jail systems.
Now if you think this eliminates the safety of the people that works in the jail systems, then you are suggesting that all violent criminals should receive the death penatly. Considering only 0.4% of prisoners are on death row but the majority of people in maximum + securtiy are there for violent offenses.
On a happier note, I have changed my avatar (with Jess in mind
)
Dang! Why didn’t it change?
MK,
It is most likely the “cache” which is a type of residual memory… If you’re avatar does not change by tomorrow, I will take a look and see if I can resolve it. It is showing up in the user section, just not on the blog.
Ahhhh….Thank you almighty Geek! Still haven’t had a moment to call you about Live Writer. I’m having a baby today and we’ve been in labor for two days…2,000 miles away! Danny and Vanessa are giving birth today in California and I’ve been doing phone doula! lol. She’s dilated 6, on an epidural and movin’ along. It’s been a LONG 48 hours!
MK,
Congratulations… and your new avatar is showing up.
I am not that busy tomorrow, so give me a call if you get some time.
Thank you very much. And tomorrow is a big maybe!
Tomorrow, Saturday, Sunday afternoon… Monday… I just finished my business class, so that leaves only statistics to deal with (easy “A”).
Congrats, MK! How exciting!
Well, it started at midnite, the night before last. And she’s only dilated 8 now. This is the slowest birth I’ve ever seen. The problem is that the contractions were 2 minutes apart starting at midnite last night and never let up, but she didn’t dilate. And they were intense and lasted a good minute…she should have been dilated 6 by then…so it’s been inch, by inch…er…centimeter by centimeter.
Ahhhhhhhh…
But it should be within the next two hours…
I actually looked up baby names that mean slow, but all I could find was Largo. No thank you. (although I think they actually are naming him Ashton Falcon…Largo might be a step up! God save me from Californians!)
Congrats MK!
I wish I can have an avatar but pretty sure my dashboard doesn’t let me.
PIP –
Stu says he will look into adding something so everyone can put in what they want. But until then…..you can go to gravatar.com and set it up.
I have old-lady taste in baby names, lol. Eleanor is my go-to for girls, but Beatrice is a close second. For boys I’ve always been fond of Oliver, Edward, Henry, and (I hesitate to say this here) Jasper (to my parents’ dismay).
So exciting, though! I didn’t know! I’m so happy for you.
You asked and you shall receive… Log into the site. Go to your profile and add a small avatar… It will be uploaded to the site. Make sure it is “appropriate” and I won’t delete it…
On the profile page at the bottom you will see where the avatar setting is…. Let’s consider this a test run, as if it causes conflict on the site I will have to remove it (bad code or conflicting code).
It is now official! The world must be coming to an end.
First PIP and I agree. Then PIP agrees with Jasper! And now I agree with Alexandra (I love all those names!)
What a world! Pretty soon dogs and cats will be living together! It’ll be Mass hysteria!
Uh oh
It said avatar uploads aren’t allowed?
Working on it….
Ok should be working now…. Give it a try. I am going to bed now, so I’ll check on this in the morning.
“What I want is to please Him.” By MK.
So do I, I stopped the murdering of his Creation.
I jumped in to the fire of hell. I commited a sin to stop a jihadist associated movement’s reason’/object for murdering innocent human beings. Read the post where the RAF murdered humans to free their associates.
It is not the normal set of circumstances that occur often in fighting those that are murdering God’s creation for their religion/theology/ism. But, it is based on truth, and actually happen.
Soo, now I’m going to bring it all home for ya, you who are actually being the contemplative monk, and not engaging in the City of God. All your reasons for doing nothing to stop the murder of innocent human beings was answered by contemplating yourself and your problems in life. Iasked you if you would kill by suicide the prisoners and the fact you did nothing by writing to me in reply: “Doing nothing? Prayer, my friend. Prayer. Prayer for the souls of these men and women, prayer for their victims, prayer for this sick, sick world. That’s what I do. I offer up my grocery shopping, my toilet cleaning, my fights with my kids and husband, my backaches….I fast. I pray a daily rosary. I try to go to daily mass. The greatest prayer that there is.”
Now, I ‘m giving you a hypothetical situation where you were asked to do what I did.
It’s all situation ethics. It has occured in real life, and I simply asked you to be that person that did the sin.
I made it personal to draw the emotions and Catholic ethics out of you.
Soo, Mk, there were actual SOF soldiers that “might” have helped those scum die by suicide and they might have been Catholics. In fact, I know they were Catholics, Hey, maybe I have had conversations with some of them. It’s that small conspiracy thing MK, it works if you sin together.
So, as I tryed to explain my reasons for going to hell to stop the murdering and even went to Confession “with you” , and got returned those unctious contemplative words from you such as:
I”m not going to give you absolution because I do not believe that you ARE contrite”
“You think you’re some sort of hero for killing in God’s name? What are you…a Muslim terrorist? I’m pretty sure God is quite capable of dealing with any sins man commits without your help…seriously.” I killed Muslim terrorist associates and get accused of being a Muslim terrorist. Hey, ain”t we being the moral equivilence preacher who detest moral equivilence as a Catholic. And to finish me off with, God doesn’t need my help.
“Aren’t we called to be merciful? Won’t we be treated with mercy according to the mercy we have shown?”
And the final insult to my honor and fact of taking on a sin:
“Spoken like a man that thinks he IS God.”
Since you are using God as your source of rightouness, and then playing me off as a person that God doesn’t “need my help”, you drive people away from your brand of selective mercy and Catechism readings.
Now, there were multi thousands of Catholic pilots who knew they were actually murdering innocent civilians with their carpet bombing of cities in WW2. They were well versed as you in their religion, and knew they were actually murdering civilians. They had a guilty heart for what they did. In essence, they were war criminals as were McCain and his buddies in Nam.
They felt guilt, and you offer to soldiers of a different era(circa 70’s), faced with the decision to sin, as many insults as you can gather up that I have posted above.
I can go into the Pacific campaign where amazingly there were no survivors in those battles, which is impossible to obtain unless you believe in Polly Anna stories told to you by vet’s who lied to you, knowing your unctious Catholicism was going to berate them for murdering the murderers and innocent life too. Is mutilation also in your book of unctiousness, another sin which you hover above in your lilly white world too? I haven’t even touched on that ethical situation Catholics were put in.
They knew. It’s was easier to walk away from a Puritan Catholic, in matters of their honor and dignity you were insulting, but didn’t know it.
In essence, they gave you no confidence.
We can bring up that liberal dogma of murdering thousands of civilians by the A bomb, but it was in the millions of soldiers that lost their religion in that war, that effected the next generation’s ethics.
Why bare a heart, a sin, a uneraseable deed, to a berating Puritan/Protestant Catholic who admits to not sacrificing their soul to eliminate the object/reason of the murder of his Creation.
Of course you will read these words, and immediately flush them away as not being in the real world, and that would be true to you , you never even accepted hypothetically to join the sinners club. You condemned even their contrition.
P.S.
Hope everything is ok with the birth.
I still think your the greatest defender of life, and hope you will be blessed with good tidings in your marriage, son, and bear your cross with your daddies mirth.
And I promise to never equal you with a rock!!! A attempt at humor.
The Cape.
By John.
“So its questionable whether you have any right to make these distinctions and presume a justice greater than God’s.”
I have the right to make distinctions because God gave me that right to make those distinctions, and since I went to God via a priest and said;
Bless me Daddy, for I’ve sinned, I took the life of murdering gangsters, who continued to murder your presumed innocent life. I presumed I stopped more innocent life from being slaughtered for the cause of releasing their leaders of the murdering gang, and associates.
Why, I even went to Confession and received Communion before the action I took to stop innocent life from continuing to be taken, all the while, in the back of my head, I was going to commanded to take a life by method of suicide. The reason for those murderers commiting suicide, was to leave their followers with the fact they were cowards, in not being able to serve their time for the cause. It worked.
So Daddy,
As you did Cain, I will always be guilty of murder, and since your love for me must be withIN me, I shall leave you in shame from not having you IN me.
I knew it was a sin, but Daddy, even if you send a Atoner, who takes on my sin, it makes me more guilty and ashamed of my action that stopped the murder of humans.
I now am another person that crucified and put another nail in your Second Being.
He’s here! 7lbs 12oz. 20 inches. No pics yet. But when I get them, I’ll put them up in a post.
Great job with the avatars Stu!
Pip,
I would have thought a bunny!
Alexandra,
Those are beautiful names. Strong. Real.
I’ve been trying to talk him into Austen/Austin, which I don’t love, but it IS a deriviative of Augustine!
It started out as Patrick and I was THRILLED! Then all of a sudden it became Ashton. I’m actually dealing with the Falcon better than the Ashton. Ashton would be like me naming a kid Farrah or Cher or Madonna. The timing is bad. So help me, if he starts dating an eighth grader when he’s in kindergarten, I’m going to blow a gasket!
No, you don’t. You want to please you. He has made it clear what He wants/expects from you.
The hypothesis that you put forward is NOT the same as the hypothesis that you defend.
You insist that killing a man that is safely locked up, unable to do anyone any more harm is morally acceptable and pleasing to God and then compare it to killing a man/men who are loose and threatening to kill others.
One is an imminent danger. One is no threat to anyone.
Using war stories to justify killing a confined man, just don’t work.
If you want to discuss the “rightness” of war, that’s one thing. But we are discussing (or were anyway) the “rightness” of the death penalty in an age where a criminal can be stopped from killing without putting an end to his life.
Once again, you’ve gone so cryptic as to be incomprehensible. I often get the feeling that you are trying to “lead” me somewhere with these posts, which would be fine, except you’re methods are so convoluted, so indiscernable, that I’m afraid I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say. It gets very frustrating.
I’m totally open to looking at things with new eyes. I’m willing to learn. But seriously, you give me a headache sometimes. Out with it man. If you’ve go something to say, say it. Speak English! There is “depth” and there is “rambling”. You’re thoughts might be profound, but if no one understands them, then what is the point?
The mark of genius is not making simple things complicated, but making complicated things simple.
I WANT to understand you. I really do. But give a girl a break, will ya?
Bottom line? Any time you begin a sentence with the words “I jump into sin” and try to show how that is pleasing to God, you’ve lost me. The same principle applies here as it does to homosexual marriage. No matter how many times you say the words, the act just ain’t POSSIBLE by definition. Sin can NEVER be pleasing to God…
omg hooray! Congratulations!!! I can’t wait to see pics.
Lol MK, one of my other fave boy names is August, which is pretty close to Augustine. Gus for short – I never thought of Gus as a real name until I met a guy nicknamed that and it just rocks on him. Awwww a little boy named Gus.
But omg baby!!
My sons middle name is Augustine!
By MK.
“No, you don’t. You want to please you. He has made it clear what He wants/expects from you.”
Then why did I admit to a sin MK?
I went to confession, and you even denied my confession which spelled out my sin exactly.
In the end, you let innocent life die, while I took on the sin of assisting a suicide of a murderer, whose murdering communist/jihadist associates were using the “jailed murdering prisoners” to murder more innocent life.
You accused a soldier who took on sin of being a Muslim terrorist equvilent, just as Obama does. You seem to forget that Muslim terrorist have this theology of murdering innocent life, while I assisted in the suicide of murders. It ain’t the same, and if you don’t get it, your emotions are getting in the way of that difference. They weren’t INNOCENT. The “prisoners” murdered, and their compatriots used them as a reason to murder more innocent humans.
It’s amazing, the contradictions in your theology and how you want to convert murdering abortionist, and save the murderer from being executed, all the while running off a person who took on a sin with insults to his sin.
Then turn around and preach a moral equivilency between God, Satan, and his loving Satan equal to me. That’s nihilism.
I brought it all home to you MK. You have done your best to degrade soldiers who took on sin, and pointed it out to you in my post. Strangely, I admit to a form of murder to stop murder and your up in smoke because I told you the truth of why I killed those “defenceless murders”, who never told their commrades/jihadist to stop murdering innocent people for their freedom.
You did nothing, I took on a sin. See, reduced to its simplicity.
You were giving the chance to join the club of sinners who stopped the murder of innocent people. They just weren’t worth it to you. You must obey your reading on your theology. .You must not take on a sin to save innocent life.
But, millions of Catholic men took on sin during the murdering 20th century and you won’t see that connection. It is to large to understand.
They walked away, and then allowed their children to wander about playing Pagan, or joining some cult, or some “ism”.
.
Admitting to a sin is not the same as being sorry for one. Pagans do that.
Reeeeeeallly…so who’s fault is it when those same jihadists kill thousands of innocent civilians in retaliation for your heroism?
I didn’t “allow” anything. We all have free will and I am not in charge of reading peoples minds to determine whether or not they are going to kill someone. I lock them up, throw away the key, and what happens next is not my responsibility. Nor is it yours.
I didn’t accuse a SOLDIER of anything, and made it quite clear that soldiers in war are not the same as wardens in jail. Do you even read what I write? You can say the same thing 1,000 times. It won’t change it’s meaning.
What a soldier does in war is not the same as what a civilian does in society.
And if I had said, ANYWHERE that there is a moral equivalency between God and Satan, you would be right. But I didn’t. Not today. Not yesterday. Not ever. So you can just climb down off that high horse of yours and place the nihilism insult where it belongs.
My theology is sound and based on scripture, the catechism and the Magisterial Teachings of the Church. I have no idea what yours is based on. If it makes you feel better to think that you are one of God’s favorites because you are willing to kill men imprisoned in jail cells, then go for it. Just don’t call it Catholicism.
Well to begin with, I wasn’t even born during world war II, so I was hardly given an invitation to join the sinners club. And to end with, I can’t say that I appreciate you’re accusing me of things that I have not said or done. I have not addressed, not even once, the culpability of soldiers at war. Unlike you, I have, in plain English without sleight of hand tactics, said that there is no correlation between what is done in war and what is done in society. That you keep ignoring that is not my problem but yours. You are welcome to your theology aso. I don’t want any part of it. Unless you have some point to make other than I am less of a Catholic because I won’t shoot abortionists or inject death row inmates or fight in a war, this conversation needs to end.
If you have something NEW to add, I’ll be happy to continue, but I’m done being insulted and told that I have no idea what I’m talking about. I often enjoy our conversations, because I really like going deeper than most of folks here (with the exception of Alexandra and John) like to go. But sometimes I wonder if you aren’t on meds. There are times when you are so coherent and others when you go so “deep” that you give me the bends. No matter how profound you believe your thoughts to be, until and unless you can express them in a way that invites others to join in, I’m afraid that you are the only that is left impressed.
Don’t get me wrong. I like you. And this isn’t about us disagreeing. It’s about the fact that you keep saying the same thing over and over. Conversation is only worth the time and effort if it moves forward. Your last post is not much different than your first this time around. So what’s it gonna be? Are we done, or do you want to try again?
Kristi and Alexandra,
If only boys still listened to their mothers…but alas, they grow up and name their own kids things like Ashton and Falcon….*sigh*. I think I’ll just call him “Biff”.
MK,
My Dad’s name was Unus-Ian because this was a Scottish-Gaelic name. Translated into English, he was Angus-John. Angus’ are often called ‘Gus’, but that was a no-no for Dad! He was forever mad about being called: Unus.
It came as a shock when I told him the word was not Gaelic, but Latin. In that language ‘unus’ means ‘one’. So the name was the Roman’s way of calling a clan ‘chief’ … ie. ‘the one’.
My Dad felt much relief about that tidbit!
MK.
You didn’t read the facts of the Badder Meinhoff history and their associates,RAF/Jihadist, murdering people to get the release of their compatriots.
It’s history. The suicide of their leaders stopped the murder.
It is you that insulted the valor and honor of a soldier’s recounting of his taking on a sin to stop the murder. He tryed God, and confession, and you defined God to him, and his confession too. Good for you. Yet, you ain’t winning any converts to your Puritan form of Catholicism that is being stressed in these times.
At least in matters of numbers dropping more and more beginning in the 20th century, or faithful Catholic men . Men have abandoned their Catholicism and fled a church that became a adversary to their experiences and ethics they faced in war.
That you defend yourself with some remark about not being born during WW2 is not what my statement was about. Of course you weren’t born during or before WW2. My statement was about the history before you were born. It was a explaination of the drop off of Catholic men going to church.
I asked Val why men would take Communion, and defended the act of stopping the murder of innocent humans by taking on the sin of murder by suicide. They are connected, and you will always fail to see that connection from being who you are.
It’s a world that you are incapable of understanding.
When you were growing up, there were former Catholic men who hid their sins from you.
After all, telling a kid their sins would be met with that self sure Puritan Catholicism they got from their priest. Why, denied their contrition is a sure way to keep a member of their church going back for more insults to their sins and honor.
Or, read my reply to John and see what you are doing to those that sinned to stop terrorist then and now.
As for the death penality.
I jumped out of the block and gave my opinon of letting them do themselves in. Or not. It’s his freewill.
the Cape,
I’m very happy that you said those things about tough moral decisions. Unlike MK though, my ‘morality’ is not principle-based but Jesus-based. Since I live IN Him, my moral take is a consensus between Jesus, His Church (very extensive. Direction given in confession is most-often super.), and me. [MK's is very much this way too ... Her profound reasoning is always sound. It also is why she is so sensitive - a very superb SISTER!]
Making ANY moral decision is never a solitary endeavor as you would surmise with thoughts of independence, free-will, pride all readily available.
A very simple/and-profound way to deal wih involved ‘moral dilemmas’ is to ask a simple: ‘And what would Jesus do?’ Following this simple rule is most-often simple. But I will admit that like the Crucifixion it CAN be very difficult.
Many of Rome’s earliest Christian martyrs were (justifiably) killed because the non-Christians understood that this cult drank baby’s blood. They deduced this from our drinking Christ-INNOCENCE blood during a eucharistic celebration. Reprise was not (and never has been) sanctioned. We do-not ever go-to-hell to win heaven.(sacrifice ourselves in order to gain heaven) …. try: a bank manager who is asked to rob his own branch, under threat of death to his kids. Moral problems galore are here.
Cape, you can’t confess a sin you aren’t sorry for. It doesn’t work that way. If it did, I would have IVF…but I know I wouldn’t be sorry, so I would be stuck with a sin on my soul that I would be unrepentent of….You can’t plan to sin and plan to be sorry.
Ahhhh John, the romance has not gone out of our relationship…
Cape,
If you would like to say that you agree that capital punishment (which is what we were talking about) is wrong according to the Catholic Church and then say that you are curious how we feel about situations that are more complicated like wars and Hitlers, then just say that. Why all the nonsense about “blaming the sinner” and “bein’ a puritan”…waste of my time, and actually yours.
The very first post I put up said that the Pope himself did not openly denounce Hitler because it ended up in more deaths.
But we were NOT talking about war times, we were talking about CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.
When you can stop a person from doing harm by simply jailing them then you do not NEED to kill them. But the church DOES allow for killing in rare circumstances when that is the ONLY way to avoid more deaths. What part of this is confusing you…????
I will ask one more time, one and only one…
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU KILL THE MURDERER AND HIS BUDDIES KILL PEOPLE IN RETALIATION?????
I don’t know why you keep avoiding that question.
This whole aggrivating conversation could have been avoided if only you would be clear about what you are trying to say. You changed topics and forgot to notify the rest of us.
Capital punishment….strategies of war….capital punishment….strategies of war.
The man that was put to death two nights ago posed a threat to NO ONE. His death was UNNECESSARY. The scenario you are describing is completely different. If you kill a man to stop him from killing other because there was NO OTHER CHOICE it is not a sin….by my standards OR the Catholic Churches….
Exactly.. God already knows what you are sorry for and what you arent…
By MK.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU KILL THE MURDERER AND HIS BUDDIES KILL PEOPLE IN RETALIATION?????
In the actual case I posted, which was about the Badder Meinhoff gang and thier allies in terror, the RAF, the suicide of their leaders STOPPED THE MURDER.
And your about to find out that you agree with Obama and his vision of having a show trial
is going to get innocent life’s killed. Maybe not in the USA, but somewhere in the world, his jihadist are going to murder for their release.
Have you noticed there are no prisoners being taken in the war on terror in anymore?
The’re are being shot down armed or unarmed, and you can bet we’re hiring assasination agents to eliminate terrorist who are doing nothing at the time they were murdered.
You can bet that bombs are being dropped on houses where innocent human beings are located with the “criminal”.
You don’t know how many times the people whu demand the release of their compatriots are assassinated, and the news doesn’t know that story. But, like you, you have a ally in Obama in rooting out those agents and have no mercy on them.
Just as you had no mercy on me.
Yeah Cape.
Me and Obama. Like two peas in a pod.
Honestly, I have no idea what you’re talking about anymore.
How we got from executing criminals to me and Obama being best friends is beyond me, but I’m sure it all makes sense to you…
Too tired for this now. Maybe some other time.
MK.
There were two components to my post.
Killing terrorist in jail, when they are being used as a reason to murder people to free them.
Taking Communion and knowing your going to commit a sin to stop the murder of innocent humans.
I brought it all home to you in one post.
As for Obama, he’s giving KSM a world platforn that will incite his fellow Jihadist to commit acts of murdering innocent humans to get him freed.
He thinks like you and PIP, and others that actually think you can’t break the will of anybody that opposes you by eliminating their leaders by swift execution for their murderous war crimes they self admit to.
And neither one of them had anything to do with capital punishment.
I addressed this by saying that this has nothing to do with capital punishment. It has everything to do with war tactics. Killing the prisoner could also result in retaliation killings. We cannot control what others do. IF this were true, and lives were being taken because we were holding a prisoner, it might be morally acceptable to kill the prisoner. I don’t know. But that is not the scenario that was in the post.
I already stated that killing in a just war is NOT a sin.
There. Wasn’t that easy. If only you had spoken so clearly three days ago…
It’s not that your points aren’t valid. It’s that you veil them in such obscure clothing that no one knows what you’re trying to say.
We posted the catechism, which says that it is VERY RARE that a criminal must be put to death to avoid more deaths. Then you come up with a VERY RARE scenario, and start accusing us of being bad Catholics, Unforgiving, and God knows what else, when we had already addressed the issue of VERY RARE circumstances.
Capital punishment is allowed SOMETIMES. If it is allowed it is NOT a sin. No need for confession, no need for 2 days worth of convoluted,cryptic caterwauling.
I still love you.