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And you served in what capacity? So thanks for “knowing what is best for military cohesion”.
Okay Stu, tell me why gay people are bad for military cohesion. Are you saying that soldiers are unable to control themselves around gay people? That gay people send out hormones that cause people to act devisive? Or what?
Actually Pip, this is one time when I think that gays should have the same rights as straights. They have the equal right to go off and get killed in some foriegn country.
I wouldn’t have a problem however with making them live in separate barracks. Distraction, justified or not, is not good when lives are on the line. I wouldn’t want women and men in the same sleeping quarters either. Unless there were extraordinary circumstances.
PIP –
It actually isn’t a homophobic thing. I know you won’t believe it but it is true.
We separate the men from women in the latrines, the dorm rooms and even during combat. Do you know why?
You can go to Yahoo answers for some really good explanations. It should make you happy because the “they are all homophobes” is in there too. But you will notice the one voted the best answer and the majority of them do show legitimate reasons.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090517152354AA6b1zc
Also – not having enough troops has nothing to do with enlistment – which by the way has increased almost every year and all recruiters are meeting quota – it has everything to do with this administration not wanting to send men over.
Also – 10% of recruiters are denied because they are gay? Really? Considering all legitimate statistics show the gay population is about 3 -5 % – I seriously doubt there are more gay men wanting to enlist percentage wise than non gay men. Even GayDemographics.org says there are only 1.16% of the population as being in a homosexual relationship.
http://www.gaydemographics.org/USA/USA.htm
It really isn’t as big as what some would like for you to think it is.
OH , I forgot –
Stop using pictures of me in your cartoons! Really – how rude for you so show my true form coming out of hell to blog!
Also – love the third one!
MK –
Unfortunately they don’t have enough space to start separating everyone from each other because of “feelings”. The military is all about simplicity. Male and female separation – simple. Finding out who is gay and who isn’t and then finding a place to put them that wouldn’t “offend” anyone (not all female soldiers would want to be in a dorm with a gay man and not all male soldiers want to be in a dorm with lesbian women) – not simple.
Do you seriously want the military to have to start thinking more about that then about protecting us?
“Also – 10% of recruiters are denied because they are gay? Really? Considering all legitimate statistics show the gay population is about 3 -5 % –”
I think you are mixing statistics. It’s not saying 10% of the population; 10% of people who apply for recruitment are gay according to the cartoon. If 100% were black it doesn’t mean that the black population in the U.S. is 100%.
I don’t understand why they need to be separated. Gay men are still men. They are expected to control themselves just like everyone else and they can be dismissed for misconduct just like everyone else.
Val,
Finding out who is gay and who isn’t and then finding a place to put them that wouldn’t “offend” anyone (not all female soldiers would want to be in a dorm with a gay man and not all male soldiers want to be in a dorm with lesbian women) – not simple.
Not offend. Distract. Not distracting them IS protecting us.
Pip,
Val is saying that if gay men only make up 4% of the general population, but 10% of all men that want to enlist are gay, then the proportion of gay men that want to enlist compared to gay men that exist, is really high. Why would that many gay men want to be in the army?
PIP –
“I don’t understand why they need to be separated. Gay men are still men. ”
When you were in the dorm rooms did you shower with other men?
Gay men are sexually attracted to men – by their OWN admission, not by mine or some huge homo-consipiracy. So, you are asking them to shower with a bunch of people of the sex they find attractive.
You really don’t see any problems with this? If you don’t – then why don’t you shower with a bunch of men who find women attractive.
MK,
My bad. I misinterpreted what she is saying. I don’t think we forget, lesbians are gay too. This is not just gay men. So, there may be quite a few women seeking enlistment that may be gay which is hiking it up.
“When you were in the dorm rooms did you shower with other men?”
Nope but I’ve showered in the same room as a lesbian. Not a problem. I have a lesbian, last visit to chicago I slept on her couch and hung out with her and her girlfriend for 4 days or so. She never had a problem controlling herself around me.
THat is, I have a lesbian friend* lol
PIP,
She never had a problem controlling herself around me..
Again, it’s not about control. Or offensiveness. Or temptation.
It’s about distraction.
As for lesbians changing the statistics. I’m pretty sure they are counted in the 4% homosexual population….so 10% of enlistees being homosexual, whether male or female is still extremely high.
It reminds me of the homosexual problem the church had. An inordinate amount of homosexuals entered seminaries precisely because there were other men there, and not because they wanted to be priests.
MK –
“As for lesbians changing the statistics. I’m pretty sure they are counted in the 4% homosexual population….so 10% of enlistees being homosexual, whether male or female is still extremely high.”
Correct. The Gay Demographics does not discriminate against women in their numbers. This is the problem with having the word ‘gay’ meaning homosexual men AND all homosexual’s. It does get confusing.
PIP -
“She never had a problem controlling herself around me.”
Repeat after me: “There are more people in this world than homosexuals”.
You keep assuming this is all about the homosexuals being the big bad hormone walking around with no self control. I’m not sure why you keep thinking that. Not once have we said it is because the homosexual cannot control themselves – it has only been you saying that. Listen to what MK is saying – its about distracting.
I have slept in the same bed with a lesbian before – nothing happened because she was my friend and she knew I wasn’t interested in her that way.
However, I would not sleep in the same bed with a lesbian I didn’t know. Just as I wouldn’t sleep in the same bed with a man I didn’t know. So, I’m not sure what your point is.
We are talking about showering, using the restroom, changing in front of people who you do not know who you know can be sexually attractive to you. This is called a distraction. So, your choice is to isolate the people who say they are gay, or use the don’t ask don’t tell policy where people just don’t know and assume you are not sexually attracted to the people you are showering with.
So, let’s go with the slippery slope. What do you want to do with the bisexuals? Or the Transgender?
This is what you are wanting – isolation for the homosexuals. And increasing tension in the military. This is what you are asking for. Segregation. It is for the safety of our men and women in the military that the homosexuals don’t go running around letting everyone know about their sexual orientation. The military isn’t college – it isn’t peace, love frisbee…… These people are machines and do what they need to do to protect us. The Military is a completely different world and there is no room for touchy feely BS and worrying about if people’s feelings are being hurt.
The military men and women do not have time to be politically correct and they need to know that the man or woman standing next to them in combat isn’t going to go crying to their mommy because they aren’t being accepted.
Hey PIP! (or any other college student or recent grad) –
I have a really dumb question – what is the difference between an associate degree and an associate of applied science degree?
As far as I can tell the AAS degree has less credit hours…….Is that the only difference?
(So, maybe that was two dumb questions……..ah well….)
Just out of curiosity- how does sexual orientation have any relation to unit cohesion? In fact, Dont Ask Don’t Tell would lead to MORE distrust in my mind, because you can’t be sure who a person is, their lifestyle, etc, which could fairly easily lead to trust problems.
More and more generals are calling for an end to Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, and just last month an article made it into an official military journey calling for an end to the policy because it hurts the military, written by an Air For colonel.
Shouldn’t those individuals, having seen the effect of this policy in action, have a better grasp of it than any of us? Doesn’t it become clear that if even internally people are calling for an end to this policy that it really does nothing, or at worst hurts unit cohesion?
I don’t how someone being gay is a “distraction” any more than someone being straight. The fact that a gay individual opens up and is no longer closeted means they unequivocally trust their unit.
I think the distraction could come from either side. Men working next to women causes distraction. And I think that many men have a problem with homosexuality that could range anywhere from being uncomfortable to full blown homophobia. If I was constantly thinking about my fellow recruits, rightly or wrongly, because this isn’t about whether they SHOULD homophobic, but whether they can focus on their job at hand, then I would think that could be a distraction.
Not everyone, including myself, understands what goes on in a homosexuals mind when it comes to attraction, and just as I would feel really uncomfortable undressing, showering etc, in front of men, I think I would feel the same way in front of gay men if I were a man. I don’t think it would be as much of an issue for me as a woman, in a lesbian situation tho. I am probably so wrong, but just like male female relationships are viewed differently depending on whether you ask the man or the woman, I think that lesbian relationships have much more emotional aspects to them. I could be so wrong. But I think men and women have sex for different reasons. And emotionally, I think woman are more comfortable with each other. With men, it seems to be more about the physical.
Again, I could be totally off base, but being right or wrong is not the issue. Perception is.
Anyway, sex is a strong distraction, no matter how you’re bent.